Why Trust Matters More Than Ratings in Teacher Development ft. Craig Randall | Transformational Educators Ep. 23

What if the very system designed to improve teaching is actually making teachers less likely to grow? In this episode of Transformational Educators, Dr. Matthew Flippen sits down with Craig Randall, author, speaker, trainer, and creator of Trust Based Observations, to explore why trust must come before data if school leaders want real improvement in teaching and learning. From the opening of the conversation, the episode centers on a clear challenge for educational leadership, fear distorts what leaders see, and trust creates the conditions teachers need to improve, reflect, and thrive.

Craig shares how his experience as a teacher, counselor, and school leader led him to question traditional observation systems and build a more human, growth-centered model. Together, he and Matthew unpack why ratings often create anxiety, why compliance can replace authentic teaching, and why psychological safety is essential if educators are going to take risks, try new strategies, and keep getting better. The conversation also highlights what trust-based observations look like in practice, including frequent unannounced visits, reflective conversations, and strengths-based coaching that helps teachers feel supported instead of scrutinized.

This episode speaks directly to principals, aspiring campus leaders, instructional coaches, superintendents, and educators who want to build thriving school cultures rooted in courage, compassion, and meaningful change. If you care about teacher growth, school transformation, instructional leadership, and creating campuses where both students and staff flourish, this conversation will give you practical insight and renewed purpose.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

When I start rating you, it damages our relationship and you don't trust me anymore. And then you play it safe.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

And if you play it safe, you're not trying new things. That is Craig Randall, author, speaker, trainer, and creator of trust-based observations. He believes one of the biggest problems in education is that the very systems meant to improve teaching can quietly shut down trust, risk taking, and real growth.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

People need to feel safe in order to try something new. They need to be supported. How does that happen? It happens when we build trusty relationships with people.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

By the end of this conversation, you'll learn how school leaders can create the conditions teachers need to improve, reflect, and thrive. I'm Dr. Matthew Flippin, and this is Transformational Educators. Today we are talking about seeing schools clearly and why trust comes before data with Craig Randall. Welcome to the show. Thanks, man. Thanks. I appreciate being on. Yes, absolutely. You know, Craig is the creator of trust-based observations and has spent years helping school leaders rethink how observation, feedback, and trust actually drive improvement. Now, what stands out about your work, Craig, is really your willingness to challenge long-held assumptions about observation and evaluation, not lowering expectations, but creating conditions where real growth is possible. So today we're going to explore how leaders can really diagnose the true reality of a school, why fear distorts data and observations and what it looks like to build trust before trying to fix instruction. Right. And so again, it's great to have you. Thanks for thanks for being with us today. No, I appreciate it. I'm super excited for a chat today. Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, I know we we've visited a little bit about how you came about this model of trust-based observation. I'd love for you to share with us what you experienced as an educator and then who spoke into you to help guide this, how this came about, this model that you have found to now be so effective.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, for sure. I I think, I mean, I was a counselor and a teacher in different jobs along the way. And uh at one point I ended up working in an international school, and and the elementary principal said, Craig, I think you'd make a good principal. And uh, after some initial reluctance, I thought, oh, maybe so. And and I found a program. This is all pre-online and and so that was willing to work with me living overseas and taking classes in the summer and uh maybe a little what we'd call asynchronous now. And and really, but even then, I just have to say, like with observations, like even when they were done well, I didn't like them because you'd have an observation and and they'd give you your scores or whatever, and they always offered a suggestion or feedback. And then if you're lucky, you'd have maybe one more later in the year. But then it was completely new and they'd offered feedback, suggested feedback, and it never came up in the second one. And it was like they were just so disconnected. So, like, well, what's feedback if we're not even gonna talk about what we like where's growth or change or continuing growth? And and I remember I would talk to people about it and they'd say, Oh, I know, I know, I know, but what are you gonna do? And so, even really starting my program, in some ways, I was I was wondering, why am I even doing this? And at that point, I was actually in the middle of two years of not even being observed at all, and which is more common than people might think. And, but then in my supervision class, my very first day of class, uh, the man that became my mentor, Warren Aller, he he just said very first day, you have to be in classes every day. You need to be spending an hour in classes, you need to be focusing on their strengths, seeing what they're doing well, building from what they're doing well. You need to be asking them questions where you're valuing them, not just telling them, but asking them, like, what were you doing to help students learn? What, if you had the chance to do it again, what might you do differently? And and then what we did that like when I speak now, I'll ask people, when you did supervision, did you practice observation? And and I've spoken to you know thousands and thousands of people. I've had one hand raised up. No one ever practices it. It's almost like sending you out into teaching without student teaching, not quite the same. But we would practice, we would bring 10-minute mini lessons, and one of us would teach, and then one of the other of us would would observe. And it was, it was a very basic version of what we do now, but really effective still. And so we practiced over and over and over. And really that started the whole process. And then when I got my first, and uh, I don't know if we want to go into the mentor part now or more into that later, but my um, but my um my first assistant principal job, I told my principal, who I got lucky again, because he'd had a whole career in the US, retired, came out of retirement to do the international school thing. And I said, I have got this crazy idea about observations. And he said, Okay, let's do it when I told him about it. And and then we started doing it, and teachers just loved it right away.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So for our for our audience, draw the contrast between the two models. So the traditional approach, what what's happening and what are the outcomes and or challenges, and then yeah, the trust-based approach.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

And a traditional model, and then there's variants, but there's a lot of similarity. Um, and there's two or three predominant models out there, and and state law and almost every state that mandates some version of one of these laws. And and really it's it's a three-part process where there's a pre-observation conference where you and I meet. And if you're the teacher, you tell me that day, okay, I'd like you to come in this day. And on this day, I'm this is gonna be our learning goal, and this is what I'm going to do. And so then I have to go write all that up after our meeting. And then I go in and I watch you during that whole class period, and you you teach. And I write all that down. And but if I'm gonna be truthful, when when you know that you're gonna be observed as a teacher and you know you're gonna be rated, and then that factors into my retention or sometimes uh bonuses, you're not seeing their normal teaching. You're seeing, and I'm not blaming teachers at all, it's it's human nature. I'm seeing teaching on steroids to tick the boxes and impress the boss. And and I'll hear regularly what we call the dog and pony show stories, where teachers will say, Every, hey kids, listen, if you if you behave really well, I'll get you this afterwards. Or they'll say, Every time I ask a question, everybody raise your hand. Raise your left hand if you know the answer, raise your right hand if you don't know the answer. And and I mean, literally, I hear these things. And and so it it so then we have a reflective conversation. So I've had to write everything out afterwards, and now we have a conversation where basically I give you your scores on all these different areas, which range from maybe 35 or 40 areas up to 75 different areas, which how can you see all that in one class period anyway? And then the scores usually some four-point scale that ranges from you're not very good to you're amazing. And as a leader, when I have to give someone a score, and it's a score that I know is going to be lower than what they want, because everyone wants at least good, right? And then there's all this anxiety behind it. And so, and then they have to write all that up. So sometimes that can take up to six hours. And so what the research says, and there have been two major studies that have come out in the last seven years and now eight years, I guess it's 2018, the calendar year just flipped. But um, and the research says it's not improving teaching and learning. They both say the same thing a big Gates Foundation study and a big Hannenberg Institute for Education Reform study. And these are major studies. But there's also a guy named Matt O'Leary out of the UK, and his research is much more concerning. Actually, the Gates Foundation study said the way we're doing observation increases teacher dissatisfaction, which is not what we want. But O'Leary's research says what ends up happening is when I start rating you, it it damages our relationship and you don't trust me anymore. And then you play it safe. And if you play it safe, you're not trying new things. And you can't get better if you're not trying new things. And but worse than that, the research says that it causes harm, it causes stress, anxiety, trauma, and most concerning of all, it says it actually lowers teacher's self-of-self sense of self-efficacy. If under Hattie's guidelines on research, collective teacher efficacy is the most powerful influence on learning, and what we're doing lowers self-efficacy. I'm not sure how you're ever going to get to where you want.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Sounds like the traditional model is undermining the goal. Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Unintentionally, because obviously it's well intended, but it's not taking into account um, I think human beings and their hearts, and especially in a profession that's about heart, that's about making a difference.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

We see this in other areas too, where there's a there's a mandate, right, in an effort to check the box. We haven't necessarily backed up and looked at is this the most effective way to check the box? And I think that's where I'd love to shift and like, okay, so what's the effective way uh Craig you found in your search as well?

SPEAKER_00 9:43

There was a piece of research in 1984 that looked at teacher evaluation models and they said, Can one tool, like your observation template, do two things? Can it support growth and evaluate for retention purposes? And looking at 32 different school districts, it said, no, we have to separate it, have one tool that does evaluation and one tool that does growth, but what have we been doing? One tool trying to do two things. So what we do is we we understand people and we understand heart and we understand human beings and we understand how do you get the best out of people, and you have to have psychological safety. People need to feel safe in order to try something new, they need to be supported. How does that happen? It happens when we build trusting relationships with people. Well, that's easy to say, but but how do we build trusting relationships with people? And that's really what what do you do and what don't you do to build trusting relationships? And so what we do is in one, how does trust build? It builds through frequent interactions, not once or twice a year. Like I can't talk to you, Matthew, once a year and expect you and I to become good buddies to trust each other. We've got to spend time getting to know each other and has to be consistent. And so we see you regularly, once or every three or four weeks, and there's no, they're not announced, they're unannounced. But because we don't grade the pedagogy anymore, and there are ways that we manage that with state laws, just so people out there listening know. Um, so because that that raising the pedagogy causes so many problems, but I see you regularly, they're unannounced when they're strengths based, and I just want people to hear that again. They're strengths based. When I stop start focusing, stop focusing on what's wrong, and that's what ends up happening. When I grade you, my mindset just becomes deficit and I look at what's wrong with you. And it's harder for me to help you grow. When I start to look at what's right with you, even if I'm not be the highest level of right, it's so much easier for me to help you grow because I'm looking at you from what you got, just like we would want a teacher to do with a student, right? Of course.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I'm thinking I'm listening to this thinking, well, wait, we need psychological safety with teachers. Aren't we always talking about that with children as well? You mean maybe we grow teachers the same way we grow students through relationships? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

It's rocket science. What can I tell you? Um, so yeah, and so we do these 20-minute unannounced observations. So there's no worry by the teachers ahead of time once they've really want to be even spent one week at your school training. The word spreads even before every done that it's a really positive thing. So that worry is taken away. It's authentic teaching because you don't know when I'm coming. So our conversations are genuine. There's no fear involved with the teacher because we're not putting that rating score into it. And so we start by there's all these little things that we do to build trust. And I want to go into the whole list today, but like I'll just give you a couple. We have the conversation in the teacher's room, not our office. And we just say, whether you're seven, seventeen, or 37. Getting called to the principal's office feels like getting called to the principal's office. And when you're in your space, you're safer. We sit beside you, not across from you, because people feel safer like them. But we start by asking questions, like the version of those two questions I mentioned earlier. What were you doing to help students learn? If you have the chance to do it again, what might you do differently? And instantly, what am I saying? I'm saying you're a professional and I value you and what you have to say. That builds trust. All these little things build trust. And I share all the strengths that you have. And each strength I share is a little trust-building action. And we ultimately tell the teachers this the goal is for me and everyone else that does observations to build enough trust so that any of us can come into your classroom, observe you, see you trying something new, and even though it's not likely, have that thing that you're trying to be a train wreck disaster, but as opposed to a traditional observation where you'd be having all this worry and anxiety about it, that won't exist because you know the first thing I'm gonna do the next day when I come into your classroom is say, Matthew, I love it that you're trying something new. That's how we get better. It's not always gonna work out the way we want, but that's how we grow. And when you've created those conditions, everything changes. And that there's more to it, but that's the nutshell of really what I love it.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

So, so at the yeah, and thank you, thank you for doing that, for drawing the distinction. I mean, I in my mind I'm thinking through really this anxiety-provoking, uh not helpful leads to lower performance instead of higher. And then this other model that is uh actually life-giving in a sense. It's it's dignifying, it's respecting the profession, and it's grow and it's growing.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

So, yeah, thank you. You know, Matthew, I was just just at a meeting just prior to this, and I was talking to one of the very first schools we trained. Oh gosh, four years ago, four and a half years ago, and there were some other people in our community, school leaders that we were on with those on the meeting too, and she was trying to get them to understand why it's so much better. And she said, You see tears of joy in our reflective conversations because teachers aren't used to having their strengths shared with them. I mean, we shouldn't see it's great that that's happening, but it's also an indictment in the other systems when because I'm saying something nice about you, you're crying joy because it's you don't really hear that. I mean, there's something wrong when that's happening.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Absolutely. So let's talk about a specific example where you've gone to a school and and what was going, what was the leader looking to improve? What the what any metrics were that you that you know about the school before you coached them and then what it looked like afterwards. I love to unpack those.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

I mean, look, if we're being honest, people that are reaching out are people that the heart-centered relationship piece, the the psychological safety piece resonates. So I'm at least with the lead leader, I'm not really having to do any convincing because that's why they've reached out. But we had a school in outside of Bakersfield, California, and it was uh uh a small secondary school district and economically depressed oil community, and um really loving people and students, and and uh when I was there though, it was really, really traditional teaching. It was everybody was in rows, and it was really like when I went to school, or perhaps when you went to school, where there's a a lot of lecture, and and and then and then that was it. And so that's what we that's what happened when I first got there. And but even then you still see strength, you still see relationships. You even if I'm not saying teaching that I would say is ideal teaching, and look, some people can pull that off and it and it it it it can be fine, but that's what it was when we got there. And trust takes time, right? It doesn't happen overnight. About nine months later, um the superintendent messaged me and and he just said, or maybe we talked, I can't remember, messaged me, then we talked, and and he just said, Craig, it's really amazing. The the union and all the teachers, they came to us and they said, We really need to improve our teaching. The union and the teachers came to the superintendent and principals and said, We need to change our teaching. I'm repeating that for a reason. And what really ended up happening is over the time of going over that for nine months and seeing our form and the good practices, and we always tell the teacher something not being filled in is not a negative, it just means we didn't see it. But they saw on their own areas where they could grow and enough safety developed where they actually approach them saying, we want to get better. And so they work on pedagogical stuff and on their own and through some of the things that we do to work with them. But they also we we have like what we call part two training where we really build into the piece where we start to offer suggestions, and there's a very specific way that you do that to build trust too. You don't tell, you ask permission, and you work with them just like you would want a teacher to work with students, not just say, hey, get better at this, which is truth be told, kind of the way we tend to do it. And so we came back and did that, and then this school, uh, after having been fully implemented and everything, they ended up raising the percentage of California standardized tests. The percentage of kids uh that reached proficient year over year rose seven and a quarter percent in math and twelve and three quarter percent in EAL. So, I mean, that's that's that's traumatic. I mean, people celebrate one and two point gains.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, that's outstanding. And you and I go, I know there's not a state measure on uh culture, campus culture, although I think that would be a better predictor of uh a performance. I agree, but uh, but the reports back uh from the superintendent obviously were positive. The I the idea that the union and the teachers would say we need to improve uh and feel confident enough saying that out loud and that it would be heard and well received. I mean, I don't know if I've heard a story.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

I know it's pretty it's pretty crazy. I you know, I will I can I tell you a quick little culture story? Sure, please. So we we train schools all over the world, international schools and and schools in in the UK and and and and the US and and wherever. And and so I was leaving, uh, and so before we come, people always say, well, what should we tell the teachers? And we say, just when we give them a little email template and say, you know, make it your own, but just tell them we're doing trust-based observations. Usually the word trust just does enough that that that gets people okay. And we just say, we know you're gonna love it. But for those of you that get observed that week while we're learning, it's it's not gonna be fun to have a group of people coming with a laptop. But as soon as you have the reflective conversation, we know you're gonna feel better. And we always do it the same day when you do the training, there's no delay. And so I'm leaving an international school in in Cambodia, in Phnom Penh, the capital city, and it's a large K-12 international school. And as the superintendent and I are walking out, on the way out, we hear we run into three different teachers at three different times, and all three of them said almost the same thing, and they all had the same wistful tone in their voice, and they all said something along the lines of oh, I thought you were gonna observe me. So, like, think about that. I missed out like, no fair, I didn't get my team turn being observed, like that, like what, what? And so, how did it happen? It happened really because teachers are gossips, and so as soon as the first teachers finish, everybody goes up to them and says, What was it like? What was it like? And they start hearing about wow, they wanted to know what I thought. They told me all these things I was really great at. And so by Friday, people want to be observed. That is transforming your school into a culture of trust in one week. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

I was thinking about what's your what's your preferred term instead of observation? I know you say trust-based, but observation itself to me is not even the right word for for what these should be.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

I d no, I know. And I've thought about that. I don't like the word evaluation because we're not evaluating. And you still have to evaluate. And we evaluate things though, that like professionalism and your mindset towards growth and behavior along with others and all that kind of stuff. These are really coaching. It's really coaching sessions. It is, and we're actually, I mean, there's a four-book mission like that I'm on, is first is writing a second edition, but one of the other ones is trust-based coaching, and one of the other ones is also trust-based observations for leaders to support other leaders, because there's nothing that shows us how to do that. The other is just trust-based leadership. So, you know, it's funny because the word that I have a bigger problem with, and it's not the word itself, it's just what the connotations are, is the word feedback. Because I think feedback always implies negativity. And I don't have an answer to the to the substitute word, but but uh other than we call them reflective conversations. And I think even that's As something and not as negative.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah. No, that's great. That's great. Well, and just to just to contrast, because I think about, you know, a lot of who we're um serving, you know, Craig, are leaders that desire to be transformational, right? They're going into a new campus that has some faces some real challenges, and they're trying to quickly transform that that starts with a trust-based culture. So I think about like the contrast of if I if I if I'm trying to do that work and I do a traditional uh observation model, I'm somewhat shooting myself in the foot on this journey of building trust and and feedback. But if I use a trust-based coaching model of um uh teacher growth, now I'm actually accelerating because I'm I'm building relationships while I'm seeing instructional improvement uh at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

When I'm a leader and I'm really well intentioned to positive, and I even though I have the traditional way of doing it, and I want to say all the positive things about a teacher, what we really end up finding is the teacher's not listening to the positive things you're saying because their mind is always thinking about what's my score gonna be. So that that's so in their head, because that's when grained to be in our head, that it all the good, all of our best intentions get lost. And it's not their fault, it's just what happens with the system that has scores built into their pedagogy.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Totally true. I can I can see that. I can think of relationships I have where you can give them uh 10 compliments and one uh growth area, and they all think about the one, the one negative.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

All right. The cookie sandwich technique or two stars on a wish or noticings and wonderings. Adam Grant uh put out uh an article a year or so ago on that. And he said those don't work. And he said the reason they don't work is because people are smart and they know the reason you're saying the positive things is to get to the point of what they really want is what I want to fix. And like the with trust-based observations, we don't offer suggestions for, I mean, exceptions for brand new teachers, of course, but we don't offer suggestions the first three visits because we haven't built up enough trust yet. And so, but once you hit that magic third or fourth mark, then that trust is there and then they're open to it. So then when you do have a suggestion, which you don't have to have every time anyway, it it and because it's supported, it lands more, it really does lead to growth.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Absolutely. We got to have relational capacity, but we would say it or right, we got to have enough, enough trust, psychological safety, where uh and even then the way I'm presenting it should be through questions, is what I'm hearing you say.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Uh even yeah, we ask questions at first, but even like look, I might say which one of my which one of the areas of pedagogy would help this teacher most, but even then I'm going to ask permission to offer a suggestion. Hey, Matthew, I have a suggestion on working memory and cognitive load, especially reflection processing activities. Would you like to hear? And people always say yes, but if I say, Matthew, I'd like you to work on that, we get a little bit defensive. And so just changing our semantics, then it's more than that because then how do we work and walk you through that? Whips or walk with it. But it's permission based.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah. Yeah, and makes a big difference. Yeah, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

I also think how powerful this is from a modeling standpoint because you're modeling what you also would want those teachers to turn around and use the same approach in a way with the children that are in their in their classrooms, and maybe even even more impactful than the modeling is the hypocrisy of the anti-modeling that we're doing before when we're using a traditional system, not intentionally, but just the effect of it.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah, that is so true. Well, is there I know along this journey we were talking about, uh, just a person that's and this journey for you that's really impacted you. I just um and I think you mentioned your mentor briefly earlier. Yeah. What yeah, was it what was the impact he's had just on your life? Because I don't think you've just adapted this to education. I think you've probably implemented this across all your relationships.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

I just remember that first day in the class when he was saying those things. It was it was all my frustrations went away. It was that it was a combination of the the hallelujah music and and the light bulb, like both going on in my head. And I always tell people that, and I think they think I'm crazy, but it it really was. And then just because we practiced, like it became like we were modeling, right? So I had a mentor that was showing us every day, and he taught classes too, and we would, you know, have reflective conversations with him, and we would stay in periodic touch when I was international school teaching, but really since then, and since we started working on the book, we've just become closer and closer and closer. And and he's quite ill now. And and but I I mean I go up and see him all the time, and and and I tell him every single time, and he's so modest, and I just say, look, none of this would happen, would exist without you. And he tries to downplay it. I'm like, no, this would not be in existence without you. But I also know, and it does it, I'll tell you, this brings me gratitude. I know there's pride that he has, good pride, not bad pride, and I and knowing that he has a legacy and that what this incredibly caring, caring human being taught me has now expanded into this, into this model, and and and that's affecting lives and thousands of kids and teachers and and leaders all over the world. And so it I I feel I mean, he's like a second dad to me. And and so yeah, I feel really blessed.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yeah, and I really hear that gratitude there and and your love, love for him. And and uh yeah, you know, when someone invests in us and share something uh with us that is so meaningful, obviously this is his heart language, yeah. And uh and so that you've taken it and expanded, what a what a beautiful way to honor um you know what he invested in you. So um, yeah, we really appreciate you sharing that with us, with us, Craig. Well, where can our listeners learn more about your work and connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah. Um, so my website is trustbased, t-r-us-t-b-as-ed.com. And so you can get me on there. Um, we have a weekly newsletter, and so once you reach out to me through like looking at our form, which you can get at the website or get it, or or contact Craig or whatever. And so you can contact me there. My emails Craig at trustbase.com. Um, LinkedIn, my handles uh at trustbase craig. So those are any one of those ways works. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

And of course, you've got a book out as well, and I know you're doing a revision, so I would definitely encourage our listeners to pick that up as a starting point. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, so many things that stood out today, uh, Craig. And as I've learned more about your work and the model, it so resonates with what we believe transformational educators uh really do. So I just, you know, I I think about, you know, when we're trying to like interpret data um observations, but yet we're our way of gathering that is harmful to the process, then uh, you know, again, we're not we're not helping advance the the cause that we're really after, which is to see all people in our system, you know, do do well. So, you know, I really appreciate you just shedding more light on that for me and you know and for our for our listeners. Um, it's great to be with you. Um, well, I'll close out. So if today's episode was valuable, please share it with a colleague and uh and please contact uh Craig to learn more about his work. If you haven't already, follow Transformational Educators so you never miss an episode. And until next time, keep leading with purpose and transforming play uh schools into places where everyone thrives. Thanks for being with us. If today's conversation gave you fresh insight or inspired you to lead with purpose, please follow the show and tell a friend. It helps us reach more educators who want to make a difference. For more stories, resources, and tools to support your leadership journey, visit Graceland.edu. Until next time, keep leading with courage and care. If you want to keep learning about transformational strategies in education, click the next video.