When Behavior Data Masks the Real Problem in Schools | Transformational Educators Ep. 31

What if your school’s biggest breakthrough starts with diagnosing the real problem, not reacting to the loudest symptom?

In this episode of Transformational Educators, Matthew Flippen sits down with Amy Mason, former Principal at Madison County Elementary School, now a consultant and ACCEL Director. Amy shares how she stepped into a Title I pre-K to eighth grade school with some of the lowest scores in the district and helped lead lasting transformation through trust-building, root cause analysis, instructional leadership, teacher collaboration, and practical changes that made a measurable difference.

Amy unpacks how behavior data, school schedules, student relationships, and stakeholder voice all connect. From moving middle school P.E. to the end of the day, to rethinking block scheduling, to building predictable meeting rhythms with teacher leaders, this conversation is full of grounded strategies for leaders who want to improve school culture and student outcomes without losing the human story behind the data.

You’ll also hear how Amy supports schools today through instructional walkthroughs, Blue Ribbon Schools consulting, and long-term partnerships that help leaders identify needs, support teachers, and create schools where students and families feel seen.

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Transcript

Amy Mason 0:00

If you try to plug in meetings after the year is already underway, it's like a locomotive and trying to stop a train is really hard to do. And so if you have that laid out in the tracks of like this is when we're stopping at the station to talk about what we're doing, it definitely helps.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 0:17

That's Amy Mason. She's a former principal at Madison County Elementary and she's now a Blue Ribbon Schools consultant. She led her school from having the lowest scores in the district to national recognition. Today, she shows how diagnosing root causes rather than just reacting to symptoms transforms struggling schools.

Amy Mason 0:36

Middle school was in the gymnasium first thing in the morning. What I think was happening at that time is there would be conflict with peers in that PE time because it was a little less structured than a typical class environment. And then the whole day in the classroom was spent trying to resolve all of those things that happened. So to me, just a tiny little tweak was we're gonna put that at the end of the day for that age group.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 1:03

For Amy, data without diagnosis keeps schools reacting instead of solving. In this episode, you'll learn how schedule conflicts create predictable behavior flashpoints and how a single structural tweak reduced office referrals by half. I'm Dr. Matthew Flippin, and this is Transformational Educators. Your leadership journey is really about this practical, tactical uh wisdom that I'm excited for our audience to hear about uh today. And we'll focus a little bit on the work that you've done to move the move the needle and and grow into this uh what would become a Blue Ribbon school. So which is which is really an incredible accomplishment. I know that you spent years leading uh campuses and now you are working as a consultant slash uh blue ribbon school's assessor and uh helping uh leaders improve outcomes for students and and culture, which I know those are those are very much uh connected. So I'd love to back up and start at uh when you came into uh your last principalship and what a little bit about just what the school and community looked like and when you started uh this journey of uh improvement or or transformation. So so take us back. When when was that? What was the school?

Amy Mason 2:31

Absolutely. So, you know, I had been a principal uh at a high-performing school in the North Alabama area, and an opportunity came up uh to be to become a pre-K to eighth grade principal at a local Title I school. And, you know, in my experience as a classroom educator, I had lots of varying experiences supporting schools in Title I environments. Actually, I got to work in five different states as an educator throughout my career. So the first was Arizona, then I moved back to my home state of Indiana, then I was in Virginia, and then Maryland was a nine-year run. And then I've been in the Huntsville area since 2012 in Alabama. But it was neat because uh it was a school that was really very close to my community, and I knew some of the central office leaders that were there and felt like the mission and the vision of the district was going in a similar direction that I was. Um, and so I had the opportunity to interview and and uh received that position. And when I came on board, it was a little intimidating at first because I'm an elementary trained educator. And so that middle school dynamic, I wasn't exactly sure how different that would be. And I learned very quickly that their bodies are bigger, but their needs are very similar. They may have a different way of showing you those needs. And uh so my knowledge of instruction became really valuable because if you are a strong, solid instructional leader, that transfers regardless of the content area or the grade level. Good instruction is just good instruction. And ultimately, with those five different states, I've also said that kids are the same no matter where they go. Their hobbies and interests might be different, but ultimately kids are very similar. So when I came into that school, I was already kind of uh in for a challenge because I had been the third principal in a four-year span. And so I knew that those teachers um were probably not feeling like there was consistency there, a lot of change in a short period of time. And academically, the school had some of the lowest uh state test scores in the district. So we had some work to do in that area, and that's where that instructional hat was going to be really important for me to, you know, have that knowledge and understanding. Uh, and so I took the time, as many leaders do, when I first came in, to interview all of my varying stakeholders and just talk to them about, you know, what what are your uh perceived needs? First of all, what are the things that are really great about the school community? And at one time, this was a consistent theme. That school had been a pre-K-12 building for many years. And so there was a pride in the community because a lot of their parents and grandparents had graduated from that school. And uh it was interesting because the campus had everything that a high school would have, but yet when the population grew, that school branched off. Um, there were a lot of programs that didn't have anybody to manage or run them, but the facilities were still there. So that also was an interesting dynamic. Um, it actually, I like to tell my principal friends this, but they had a house on the property that we had someone renting it, but it had been the house for the principal. Um, so I was a landlord too when I took on this role. It was like, I don't remember that in my graduate level courses. How do you uh do property management?

Dr. Matthew Flippen 6:20

That's very different to that for sure. So there was some there was some history there that had pride in it for the community. So there were some highlights, and then some I'm sure the staff shared some challenges or concerns with you as well.

Amy Mason 6:35

So those concerns that came up is a lot uh talking about the behavior of the students, uh, a big concern about behavior. And, you know, I told you my history of different places that I had the opportunity to work. And, you know, I had been in an inner city Title I school. And so I had a vision in my mind of what I thought a behavior problem would be. And so day one, I wasn't exactly sure, okay, am I gonna see that? Um, in that school environment, it was like the bells were optional, where when a bell would ring, students didn't have what I called learning behaviors to know that you even walk into the classroom and that you need to be in a chair ready to learn. This was different. So these behavior problems, I was encountering children who would say, yes, ma'am, and things like that in the hallway. They seem to be kind to each other. Um, and so I was kind of scratching my head because what you'll learn is people have different definitions of things based on their experience. So I had a lot of educators that had been in the building for the same school for 20 years, uh, which is very different than my experience. So, you know, understanding how people define problems and what their expectations are are different. And so we took that on as a team, and I definitely collaborated with teachers because I needed them to be a part of the solutions as well. They needed that trust and rapport, especially after having the revolving door of school leaders. So I needed to know that any of the work that we did together would be things that would continue to stand regardless of if Amy Mason was in the building or not.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 8:15

And but you came in knowing that you were going to be there for a while.

Amy Mason 8:18

Yes. Yes. And I was. I was there for seven years. So that was great. We got a lot of time together to really make an impact. But uh, you know, we made some clear definitions of really what is it that we want students to be doing? Like what are our expectations and how are we teaching those to students? Um, there was definitely an absence of that. So uh, you know, a lot of looking at how we were addressing those things as well. Um, because the other piece was when I'm analyzing data, and then I look at the in and out of school suspensions, that was kind of the go-to strategy was let's just suspend students either in an in-house or an out-of-school. And I thought, well, then students aren't learning if they're not in the classroom. So, um, and obviously, suspensions are there for a purpose. And if it's something completely extreme, then you know, yes, you you may need to do that. But these were for low-lying behaviors um that I would I would say maybe it was being utilized more so more widely for uh just disrespect, right?

Dr. Matthew Flippen 9:27

Sure. That's pretty tough. I would have not been in school very much. Yes.

Amy Mason 9:34

So, you know, and you think about as I learn that population more, you know, you have students that are coming from more of a socioeconomic level where they're struggling. That's why it's a Title I school. I feel really strongly that students that are from a dynamic that maybe the home environment is not super solid and consistent, and they've had a revolving door of people at home. It's really hard to build trust and rapport if you have that same revolving door at school, um, where they feel like, well, you're just another person that's gonna come and you're gonna go. And uh, so I needed to really take some time to build relationships with the students. And uh it was, you know, just taking the time to get to know some of them, hear their stories, find out what things interested them really went a long way. First of all, finding like what things make them interested, like what is it that you would like to work for? And it's very funny because we used PBIS uh as a way to introduce some positive behavior, and a lot of schools are using those strategies. Um, but I think sometimes schools forget the element of asking the kids what is it that you actually want? Right. You know, sometimes what we think they'd like to work for is something completely different.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 10:52

Yes, I don't know how we would know without asking totally. I mean, you're sharing some wonderful, wonderful things. So I and and I can hear the thread of like looking at the data and then connecting it to the the hum the human, the person, the child piece. Was there something that when you first kind of started looking at that? I mean, I heard you say the discipline that needed to be maybe recalibrated or clarified in the time that children were actually in the classroom, was there was there something else that stood out to you early on as well as of a that was a gap?

Amy Mason 11:26

Yes. So at that time, you know, as a new leader, you don't come in and completely overhaul the academic schedule. However, there are some things that just on paper jumped out at me. Um, for instance, now in the state of Alabama, PE is a daily requirement. And so basically your academic schedule is driven by making sure every class gets to see the physical education teacher. And uh, you know, when you have eight or nine grade levels in a building, that that can definitely drive what your schedule is going to look like. And at that time, when I started, middle school was in the gymnasium first thing in the morning. And what I think was happening at that time is there would be conflict with peers in that PE time because it was a little less structured than a typical class environment. And then the whole day in the classroom was spent trying to resolve all of those things that happened. So to me, just a tiny little tweak was we're gonna put that at the end of the day for that age group. And you have to earn your way there and make sure that you're doing the things you need to do to get there. Not that we're gonna withhold it necessarily, but it's sort of a carrot at the end of the day if they can get through. Exactly. So that was a tweak. The other thing is it had been a block schedule that had been set up for middle school where they had, I believe it was like an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and 20 for a class period. And in my observations of just walking in and out of class, teachers were not planning instruction to use that whole time. And so then it was downtime, where again, if children have downtime, they're going to create an experience for themselves. And um, often it's not really a part of the subject or, you know, the things that you might want them to do. So that that created some opportunities for more conflict with peers, um, which is, you know, middle school, you expect that. They're trying to learn socially how to relate to their classmates in an appropriate way. And in a smaller school, the uh number of students that you have in your classes, you're with the same students in two, two different classrooms, basically, all your academic career. So it's sort of like a family where when you're together with the same people, you need a break from each other, and they didn't really get much of that.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 13:59

So, did you change the block schedule or did you help and staff adjust their their strategy?

Amy Mason 14:06

Yes. So we actually uh again, including teacher leaders in this process, we talked about what the needs were. And basically it was my ELA teacher who felt like they had so much to cover between the composition part of writing and incorporating writing, which does take time, and then the literature element that they had so much content to cover, they were using that time versus um like maybe social studies or science, they didn't need as much time for the experiments or the things that they were doing. So what we ended up doing was switching to a seven-period academic uh schedule, and then we gave English a double walk so that they could have more time to cover those things. And especially since we know that assessment-wise, that was what was being measured was your ELA and your math was very heavily measured. We needed to make sure that they had enough time. It also allowed us to build in some intervention times that we could provide those supports and uh provide a consistent schedule where we freed up some other people in the building to help with that as well.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 15:12

That's fantastic, Amy. And I I just want to highlight where this started. One, it was you get being in classrooms and observing, right? And these weren't formal assessing the teacher. This is just you walking around and coming in and seeing what's happening, and then observing that there were some classes where there was too much uh free time and others where there wasn't enough, and then adjusting the schedule to accommodate that and aligning that with uh what the what the assessments were going to be at the state at the state level, so that the content you needed more time on was was given, even though you switched to a seven period uh schedule. So brilliant. I love I love that. You mentioned the role of teacher voices in that. What did that look like? Was there concern? Was there pushback? This again, I assume you're talking about that you did this in the first year you were there, so you're still relatively unknown and maybe not fully trusted.

Amy Mason 16:09

Yes, so definitely I looked for ways to incorporate teacher leaders. And as I was interviewing different teachers in the building, you you kind of knew who your pivotal people were that uh not only maybe had some value instructionally to offer to those conversations, but also were trusted by other people in the building. That became very important because those people then could contribute to those conversations in, and I'll tell you a little bit about what the meeting structures were like, but also they then can go back to other people in the school and support and say, hey, Miss Mason was doing this and I contributed to this decision so that they don't feel like something is being done to them, but that they were a part of that decision.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 16:55

That's so important.

Amy Mason 16:57

Yes. So we had a very predictable meeting structure. Um, you know, I I see those things that people say. I attended another meeting that could have been an email. I was not that principal. Um, you know, I tried to make sure that we had some structures that people knew we were going to have consistent conversations, and I set those meeting times and dates at the very beginning of the year so that people knew when they were coming and we could drop different items that were agenda topics that we needed to discuss, and that that was already clear. Everybody knew what day that was going to be. Uh, Wednesday was the agreed upon day that the faculty wanted to have meetings, and so we would do a full faculty meeting once a month. But then on some of the other meeting Wednesdays, we would have like a leadership team meeting. Uh, I also had my, I guess you'd call it more like my cabinet, but like my leaders of instructional coaches, assistant principals, counselor, we had a weekly meeting and they named it the A Team. Um, you know, a lot of us like those throwbacks to the 80s TV shows, but my first name starts with an A, so it worked. We would have A-Team meetings once a week. But, you know, I find that if you try to plug in meetings after the year is already underway, it's like a locomotive and trying to stop a train is really hard to do. And so if you have that laid out in the tracks of like this is when we're stopping at the station to talk about what we're doing, it definitely helps to just know the rhythm of the year and when those conversations would be natural and when you can make sure that you're covering topics that are happening in your school.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 18:35

Yeah, that's really important. When did you step into the role? Was it in the summertime?

Amy Mason 18:40

Yes, yes. So I started, I think it was a July one start date, but I had some teacher vacancies to do some interviewing for. So I got started in June on some of that. Cause you know, you got to get an early shake on your teacher candidates.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 18:53

Yes. Yeah, and uh in June is probably not early enough, even. Right. Right. And so as you're building this collaborative approach, what I which I can I can hear how encouraging and uplifting that must have been for your staff. When did you start to see like the clarity and impact of decisions start to happen through through the year? That you felt like, hey, we really made a turn.

Amy Mason 19:17

Behaviorally, we saw we were tracking the the behavior data as we went through, and that was very clear. I think that that PE adjustment that I talked about of changing the time of day really gave us a lot of impact. That was a big impact. Uh, we also, for you know, I knew with some of my seventh and eighth graders, it was gonna be tricky because I only was gonna be with them for a couple of years before they would move on to the high school. But yet that was the age group that was probably gonna be my biggest challenge because that's when they refine behavior problems, right? So middle school's a rough season. Um, and so we did a lot of uh like individualized sort of behavior contracts or behavior plans with some of those students where we were just doing regular check-ins with them. And we would have pivotal people that would do check-in, check-out with some of those kids to just monitor how they were doing, especially with work completion, because some of them were uh disillusioned by school. And especially imagine if you're in a classroom that the teacher maybe isn't using the instructional time fully. They they are not maybe showing students that they're coming ready for school. Um, then those same kids are like, well, if you don't care, then I don't really either. Um, and there was nobody at home to necessarily support that need. And so we needed to build a stronger relationship with somebody that could really just show that they cared. Um, so we did a lot of uh goal setting with students and having them be aware of their data and you know what it looked like and what steps needed to be taken to help them move the needle with our screeners that we have throughout the year. Very much making them aware and own, take ownership for their role in the outcomes, right? That it wasn't something somebody's doing to you. Nobody's giving you a grade, but you're earning it. And if you don't do anything, you're not gonna earn anything. So um just a lot of that making it individualized and personal for students.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 21:21

Yeah, in an encouraging way. Yeah, I think that's I think that's brilliant. I mean, the aligning teacher behavior when it comes to instruction to the expectations you have for students, right, in terms of preparation and professionalism. And then being able to sit with students, I you know, I I have twin uh 19-year-old sons that are uh recent graduates, and I'm thinking about the feedback that they've gotten through their high school time, which I would say is zero, right? So they really have no idea how how are we doing? How is our path to being successful on you know, end of term, end of year experience? Exams, and they have no idea. And so for somebody to sit like you described with your students one-on-one and give them feedback in a way that is encouraging and hey, here's a plan, here's how we can move forward, I can I can only imagine how much difference that made. The other component of that is you know, children often in Title I schools, like you said, their family structure isn't always very structured. And so having an adult communicate care and concern is incredibly powerful in that in that kind of environment. It's it's helpful for everyone, but when you're maybe you're lacking that at home, it becomes even more uh meaningful. So just yeah, wonderful, wonderful to hear that. Thanks for sharing that. Amy, I can imagine there's probably maybe thousands of stories you could share. Um, but is there a is there a specific child um that this made the biggest impact on or a staff member? But I I can I let you pick.

Amy Mason 23:03

Well, I can I pick two if I can be concise. Because I actually had both. So, first of all, you know, because I I've talked a lot about middle school, but I had some wonderful elementary teachers too that were really pouring in and um all the way from pre-K and you know, where we were doing some things to support students' social and emotional needs, which was very important, and kind of learning the audience. When we talked about data, we had one teacher specifically that her kindergarten class had 15 students in it. And we learned after she was taking the time to get to know families, five of her 15 had already lost a parent. And so, um, you know, when you're looking at like the, and that's just a a one classroom example of kind of where we were coming from with the data. Um, and you know, elementary kids are a little more free about just sort of talking about their situation. Um, but we knew that those dynamics existed with some of our middle school kids. So they needed that relational component. And, you know, elementary teachers often have that relational piece down because they spend more time with the students. They get, you know, a longer time to build that rapport. So when I was looking at staffing for specific uh grade levels in middle school, I kind of talent spotted some of my elementary teachers and I encouraged them to go back to either get certified in mathematics or secondary English. And uh I was successful with that more than on more than one occasion. And I think it was a success story because those people are still in those roles. So um, you know, looking at your people that have a strength in one area and figuring out, hey, have you ever thought about this? You know, kind of coaching and supporting them to maybe make some decisions to expand their career. It was a win for them professionally because they had a skill set that maybe wasn't being fully tapped into, but also they were relation builders and we needed that for the upper grade students. So um, that's one of my teacher success stories.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 25:05

I love it. I love it. That's a wonderful story.

Amy Mason 25:07

And uh, you know, you talked about the family dynamic. So I have a student success story as well. When I talked about behavior, there were some things that were a little more extreme. And one of our students who was an EL uh student actually um had made a mistake on the bus. He was talking to a classmate and he made a very inappropriate uh comment about like a threat toward a teacher. And uh it made its way back to school. And per the code of conduct, it was something that could have caused an expulsion for this student. And it was somewhat out of character for him because he wasn't a child that had a large disciplinary record. Um, unfortunately, we all know that in those unsupervised locations, like often the school bus, I say the school bus drivers often have one of the hardest jobs because they're focused on safety on the road and there's all this stuff going on behind them. But I knew a little more about this child's situation. And he was being raised by a single mother and his mom had basically worked multiple jobs, one of which was washing dishes at a local Mexican restaurant. And my feeling was if this child does not receive an education in school, this could be a very pivotal moment where he can go down one road or the other. In that situation, I actually went before the school board um to speak about his situation when they were talking about how to handle the disciplinary hearing for him. And they heard me out and um placed him in an alternative setting for a while where he could continue to be educated and um never had problems from that child ever again. Um, and the mom was so appreciative because she did not speak English. And so she couldn't speak on behalf of her child. The the children were having to kind of man things at home while mom was working these long hours trying to make, you know, things work for her family. And um, they just needed a little bit more support. And actually, the alternative school had some counseling and some other supports that would be even more individualized for that student. So it was a sad story. We never want to see kids make disciplinary uh mistakes in that regard, especially ones that have big consequences. But I feel like that was a success story because that that child continued on with his education and uh the parent was so appreciative of what we had done.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 27:44

That's a beautiful story. And thank you for telling that. It's really really incredible to hear. And I just thank you for taking the time to step in and to to put the effort in. I mean, one to know all the details is unusual, right, in the way that you did it. And so I can tell how much you really invested in your children in the building and their families and your and your staff. So that's really outstanding. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, when you when you look at the work that you're doing now, I'm wondering if there is like a common constraint or challenge that you see uh campus leaders stepping into or living out where you're like, you know, across across the schools that I consult with now, this is an element that's pretty common and that I would encourage you to do differently. Well, what would that what would that be?

Amy Mason 28:39

One of the areas I think that schools are struggling with is the parental involvement component. And I I feel like um, you know, in 2020, we kind of hit pause with uh typical school and how things were run um because parents were discouraged from coming into the school. And it's it's like uh as we've come back into more of our current normalcy, schools I think have really had a hard time of figuring out how to engage families in a meaningful way to feel like that they are a part of the educational process for their children. And uh I think one of the challenges with that is we have so many different streams of communication that we can use to contact parents where we can get messaging out in lots of different ways. But you touched on this when you were talking about your sons. I'm a mom too. And as a parent, I think that I've always felt more trust and rapport with my child's teacher when they can tell me something about my son or daughter that they know about them and that they've learned about them as a learner. And and it doesn't have to necessarily be in a conference in a face-to-face setting. Of course, typically those are a part of the school's calendar. But, you know, making a personalized phone call is sort of an art that is a little lost at times and it goes a long way. So, like the story that I shared about the disciplinary situation, and there was a language barrier there too, but I knew the mom well enough and I actually could stumble through enough Spanish to make her feel like I, you know, was there and I was like on her team to support her child. And so I think that's the element of getting that parental involvement is really making it more personalized because once you build that rapport, if you have an event or something special going on at the school, they're gonna want to come and support you.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 30:32

Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. That's a great, that's a great example. And it is something that I hear uh frequently. I've definitely heard some incredible strategies that people are using. Technology gives us a great one. I think probably one of my favorite stories, though, is the principal that loaded up all the teachers on the bus to go walk the neighborhoods and find the children's homes and and uh and make connections there, handing out school supplies and just being present in their world for a community that didn't necessarily have a good history with the school, with the school system. And uh so yeah, thanks for sharing that, Amy. That's really great. If our uh listeners want to learn more about your work and connect with you, what's the best place for them to do that?

Amy Mason 31:16

Sure. My website is AIMAIM to educate the number two.com. And uh basically, you know, I, as you mentioned before, I do a lot of work in schools with uh schools that are pursuing the blue ribbon process, but also there are schools I remember as a principal trying to determine uh little pockets of professional development and how I wanted to pour into my faculty. And so I've had a lot of opportunity to partner with schools and provide just different solutions, like for example, what are ways to increase engagement in your classrooms? Um, because if we have disengaged students, then our data is not going to show us what we need. And so I'm excited to always go in and provide whatever supports I can, uh, not only partnering with principals to just have that thought partner as they're trying to develop solutions for their staff, but then also working with teachers and providing some training. I appreciate doing both of those things.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 32:13

That's fantastic. And you're on LinkedIn and other socials as well. So, you know, please look up Amy Mason and uh and connect with her. Amy, you have shared just a brilliant uh set of very specific strategies and tactics that I think anyone could could follow. I mean, you are a wonderful, sincere leader and and uh and that shows through in just the way that you have plugged into relationships at all levels. So thank you again for sharing that with us. If you found today's episode valuable, please share it with a colleague or an educator who would benefit. And if you haven't already, follow Transformational Educators so you never miss an episode, including this one. And until next time, keep leading with purpose and transforming schools into places where everyone thrives. If today's conversation gave you fresh insight or inspired you to lead with purpose, please follow the show and tell a friend. It helps us reach more educators who want to make a difference. For more stories, resources, and tools to support your leadership journey, visit Graceland.edu. Until next time, keep leading with courage and care. If you want to keep learning about transformational strategies in education, click the next video.