Why Backing Staff Unconditionally Costs You Your Best Teachers ft. Dr. Todd Dugan | Transformational Educators Ep. 33

Building school culture requires more than backing your staff; aspiring principals who confuse loyalty with tolerance risk losing their best teachers and normalizing mediocrity. 

Superintendent Dr. Todd Dugan spent three deliberate years fixing culture before touching instruction in Bunker Hill School District, guided by a concrete standard: you get what you model and what you tolerate. In this conversation with host Matthew Flippen, Dugan explains why test scores are a symptom rather than the goal, how a neglected building silently communicated low expectations, and how a CNA nursing pathway sent students into $20-an-hour healthcare careers before graduation, proving that psychological safety and high standards are not opposites.

His district funded the first 15 college credit hours for every qualifying student, backed by research showing five college courses make students 22 percent more likely to succeed post-secondary. The district's north star is now graduating every student with either 15 credit hours or an industry credential. That goal is reachable only because culture came first: psychological safety enabled risk-taking, modeled standards replaced tolerance of mediocrity, and a renovated environment signaled that students were worth investing in. Leaders who reverse the order, chasing test scores before trust, end up pressing the accelerator with the emergency brake still engaged.

Connect with Dr. Todd Dugan:
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Bunker Hill District Website

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Transcript

Coming up...

Dr. Todd Dugan 0:32

Culture, the longer it needs addressed and it is unmet, can have crippling effects. You could lose high quality staff eventually, like what we've seen in some districts, too, is you lose students and families with a toxic culture.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 0:44

That's Dr. Todd Dugan, superintendent of the Bunker Hill School District in Illinois, who spent 36 intentional months rebuilding culture before anything else. For him, when culture breaks down, you don't just lose momentum, you could also lose your best teachers. And that's exactly what Todd set out to prevent.

Dr. Todd Dugan 1:00

The high school building itself, there were seven different colors of old asbestos floor tiles that had never been upkept or replaced. Lockers were banged up and old ceilings were stained in 1962. Some of the adults decided to just take the blades off the fan and not take the work of removing a fan and replacing the tile. It was that simple stuff like that that led this atmosphere of doing the bare minimum. And so when the adults are modeling doing the bare minimum, why would you be surprised if the kids are like, what do I need to do to get my diploma and get out of here?

Dr. Matthew Flippen 1:32

In this episode, you'll learn why tolerating a neglected building normalizes low expectations and how it affects both students and staff. And why supporting staff should never mean tolerating low standards that could drive your best teachers away? I'm Dr. Matthew Flippin, and this is Transformational Educators.

Why culture must be fixed before instruction

Dr. Matthew Flippen 1:51

How did you go about uh, you know, identifying the deeper systematic, systemic barriers rather than, you know, just the isolated problems. And what what was the example when you think about like a challenge, maybe on the instructional side or or cultural side?

Dr. Todd Dugan 2:11

I think the cultural needs to be addressed far before the instructional. So that should be number one. Now, nobody ever gave me that on a map or a book. I've learned that through experience. Just, oh, you see this issue happening, but you also see this issue happening. So let's address this first because the instruction can come. As long as it's not extremely detrimental. Culture, the longer it needs addressed and is unmet, can have crippling effects. You can lose high-quality staff, but eventually, like what we've seen in some districts too, is you lose students and families with a toxic culture. So culture needs to be addressed. I do think at the end of the day, addressing those causes will eventually lead to the success of others. Conversely, you could focus everything on a symptom and you would maybe have limited success right away, short term, but long term, you would be fighting yourself. It'd be like trying to um give a car gas accelerating on the accelerated pill when you have the emergency brake on. You have to remove that that issue first in order to go forward.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 3:18

Love that analogy. Is there a specific example that you're thinking about?

Dr. Todd Dugan 3:22

I will say, like any districts, test scores continues to be a push either through realtors or families or the media or even politicians. Schools are not successful, or they are successful based on a test score. And I would argue that it is more important to get a kid to come to school, to willingly come to school, then you can address the areas that might be holding back the test scores. If you just attack the symptom, which would be the test scores itself, and that's an easy solution. If you want to have the highest test scores around, that answer is simple. Just drill the kids day in, day out on math backs or reading passages, test prep, kind of like uh in the book Shame of the Nation, where you talk about success for all, very low-level, meaningless drill and kill. You could have the highest test scores around, but what is that gonna do for you? Are kids gonna be ready for life after high school? Are they gonna want to enjoy coming to school every day? Are they gonna build a relationship with the school that allows them to connect at a deeper level? I mean, the whole point of schooling is to develop humans to their fullest potential. And I don't feel like the symptoms are indicative of the challenges that would be facing a child. So it does sound very holistic and whole child-centered approach, but uh there's definitely some truth to that. And I do feel like once you address the root symptoms of a cultural issue, the other pieces seem to be aligned. And when they're firing, it just the work seems easier. Uh that makes sense. You have the right people in the right positions, they're focused on the right areas. All of a sudden the the friction and the tension disappears and it seems smooth. But it takes a while to get there.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 5:06

It's easy to say it and write it out on a plan, but the execution, because people are complex and everybody has different, different expectations and challenges. So I totally totally get

How to create psychological safety where there was none

Dr. Matthew Flippen 5:17

that. So, how did you go about creating a culture where teachers and leaders you know felt safe enough to honestly, you know, acknowledge the challenges that maybe were impacting performance?

Dr. Todd Dugan 5:30

Well, a couple of things. They were again subconscious, but I've since been able to write them down and kind of look at what we want to establish in our culture. And and I believe that there to be a sense of psychological safety where people can give honest feedback without fearing retaliation or things like that. So you want to have psychological safety. You also want to have an effort, well, a culture where people are free to collaborate, to share ideas, not necessarily be programmed on the best ideas from a speaker or a keynote or administrator, but to to work and share your ideas with each other. I think those two things are key. And number three is the support that is needed. I believe that you've seen it where people will say, I'm here to support you. And then sometimes that could be good and sometimes it could be bad. Like I'm going to support you right or wrong. Well, I feel like we got to be careful there because, you know, as a leader, it's everybody makes mistakes, right? So you want to support people even in a mistake once. But to know that you have a blank check of support to do whatever you want and that you don't have to worry about that. I'm not necessarily so sure that that's the way to go. We have preached for years in our district that what you get and you can expect to receive is what you model and what you tolerate. So we make very sure to have these high expectations, to live up to them, to model them, and to accept no less. And that's the same thing that we anticipate. And we anticipate getting that from our staff, our employees, but also our kids.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 7:03

It's a wonderful summary, but like just the concept of creating psychological safety where there may not have been that before. It's not, that's not an easy lift.

Dr. Todd Dugan 7:13

No, it's not. You can definitely tell walls have been up from past issues, whatever they are. And I'm not saying I came to the district and it was in a bad spot. It just wasn't where I would prefer to have it. And sometimes you require a different leader for a different time. I never once came in and said this is the right way to do it. The way you're doing it was wrong. That was another thing. You needed a leader that was focused on this strength for that time. He did what he was supposed to do, got you through that, and now passed the baton to me. I foresee a new set of challenges. So we're gonna take the relay on to the next, you know, 100 meters or whatever

The 36-month culture rebuild and what it actually produced

Dr. Todd Dugan 7:47

the relay is. But for about three years, we focused strictly on culture. Lots of time talking, listening, sharing, supporting, modeling. And then I made it very clear to, you know, boards, stakeholders, administrative team, et cetera, that after 36 months, the culture you're you're complaining about is the one that you've created. Do you have 36 months to say it's a cultural issue? But after on month 37, that's your culture.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 8:16

We have this concept that we talk about that when people come to a team or a leader goes into a new team, there's a season of culture detox, right? What the the old ways, which a lot of times involve fear or hesitancy, lack of collaboration, or just openness, psychological safety, right? You've got to be in a new culture for a season. And sometimes it can be a long season, depending on how harmful the previous culture was. And so the fact that you gave 36 months to that is really outstanding. I imagine during that time you also started to see some changes in some of the the outcomes that you were that you were hoping for. Did that occur as well?

Dr. Todd Dugan 8:58

Definitely saw the outcomes as far as improved collaboration, morale, teacher retention, those metrics did, unfortunately end up being 2021, and everything shut down. So we weren't able to see the academic gains just quite yet, and then everything shut down. So there was like a brief time where everything was shut down. But I think by 2022, that was when the the considerable feeling was that things were on the right track. And so it kind of lined up, although technically it was four years. It did line up with our 36-month expectation because we had just assumed that we had lost a year due to the pandemic.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 9:38

Hey, is today's conversation resonating with you? You know, the educators we feature on this podcast all have one thing in common. They're committed to growth, not just for their students, but for themselves. At Graceland University, we've built programs and partnerships that support that kind of growth, servant leadership and school transformation for educators who want to make a lasting difference. If you're curious about what that could look like for you, scan the QR code or check out the link in the show notes. Let's get back to the conversation. Right. I mean, I I definitely think of it as a gap here. So I get that.

Diagnosing the instructional problem beneath the symptoms

Dr. Matthew Flippen 10:16

So let's talk a little bit about the instructional side. Was there something that you identified that maybe you thought was a challenge, but you had to dive in and uncover what was this, was it something specific that you could address?

Dr. Todd Dugan 10:32

So there were some uh less than stellar assessment results, especially at the secondary level. And obviously, some of that is the tests do get harder the older the kids get. Couple that with another diagnostic symptom, which was we were losing 10% of our high school a year to private schools. On top of that, there was uh a general feeling of disengagement and apathy, and there was frustration among the staff from this lack of motivation from the student body. However, uh, it all began to make sense after a couple of years of taking

How a neglected building was modeling low expectations

Dr. Todd Dugan 11:04

a look at it. The high school building itself, there were seven different colors of old asbestos floor tiles that had never been upkept or replaced. Lockers were banged up and old, ceilings were stained from 1962. They had added an air conditioning duct and it went through where a ceiling fan was. And uh some of the adults decided to just take the blades off the fan and not take the work of removing a fan and replacing the tile. It was that simple stuff like that that led this atmosphere of doing the bare minimum. And so when the adults are modeling doing the bare minimum, why would you be surprised if the kids are like, what do I need to do to get my diploma and get out of here? Obviously, we had to look at some funding and in revenues to look at making some investments in a modern learning environment that would inspire student pride and well-being. We also added access to rigorous college courses. We became an early college high school where we worked out a partnership with our local community college. So instead of kids being given remedial support on an online program to get the math scores up, they were actually able to register for college math classes, which was a learning shift. And that that increase in rigor, but also it was an increase in relevance because every child would say, like, when am I going to need this in real life? Well, if they're taking a college class, they could very clearly know that it's

Becoming an early college high school to restore student relevance

Dr. Todd Dugan 12:30

a requisite for post-secondary education, whether you pursue a credential or degree. It was basically a shift in mindset. So there's this belief that yes, we are small and rural, but no, does not mean you need a uh subpar educational experience. In fact, you deserve it just as much as your urban and suburban peers. And the data backs that up too. I mean, if you look at national results, rural students outperform uh urban students, although they have far less resources, fiscal and human resources. They have far less resources, yet rural students outperform their urban peers. That says something about resilience and grit. And that's the thing that you really have to tap into, and that requires intrinsic motivation on behalf of the student. And I believe that that's where your culture plays the biggest part.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 13:18

Yeah, Todd, thanks for mentioning those two, those two specific examples. I've heard from more than one transformational leader that the aesthetics of the building were a key shift. That in similar, something that you don't have pride in your facility, and then you do have pride in your facility, increases not just how the students feel about it, but how the staff feel. They feel valued when they come to work in a place that is that it's nice to be in, right? Some place that they they want to be part of.

Dr. Todd Dugan 13:51

And it was strategic too, because it was, again, aimed toward elevating the student experience. And I fear that some people maybe would take that too far and then be like, okay, we're gonna we're gonna paint the school and we're gonna add new vinyl tile, and that's gonna raise our test scores. Um then you're missing you're missing the whole connection right there between the physical environment and the student intrinsic motivation. But but yes, you are right. It was necessary.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 14:15

Thank you for mentioning that. I don't I don't want anybody to think new paint equals higher scores. But I will say it's part of the formula, and that formula really starts with valuing people. And then out of that, how do we communicate? And listening. Listening, yeah, is so key. So key. In fact, it's really the first thing we say when you get to a new place. Please take time to listen. Let your staff be be heard, and your and your parents and and students.

How a student's throwaway comment sparked a career pathway program

Dr. Matthew Flippen 14:41

Now, I also I love how you tackled the student apathy in this creative way. There's lots of ways to try to increase student morale, but you connected it to an outcome, which is getting already into college, which I'm sure was was dramatic. I know that you implemented one specific program around nursing. I'd love for you to touch on that just for a second and what what that did for your community.

Dr. Todd Dugan 15:08

So that was about four years ago, 2022. There was a remark that I'd heard probably a couple years prior to that from a student at the high school eating lunch. And we were eating lunch together, and he told me I cannot wait to get out of here so I can start my life. And I thought, oh, that's so sad because it's, you know, I mean, nobody wants to wish away what you end up in hindsight being like that. It was actually a pretty meaningful part of my life, and it made me who I am. And here we have a kid wishing it away so they could actually start their life. So it made quite a way, right away, that sent a message that we need to do a better job connecting what we're doing here as connected to the next step. Instead of saying, like, our job is to get you to that stage at the 12th grade, and then, you know, we did our job and go find yourself. And that was a broken model. I think that's been backed up a thousand times, especially with the exponentially rising increase of secondary or yeah, post-secondary education, higher education. It's the value has or the the cost has gone way up. And to tell people to go out there and just take a bunch of debt and party, explore, find yourself connected, you'll find your way. It's a broken model. So we try to get kids to find their way earlier. And so that was the uh program. We had surveyed the kids, multiple indicators, and for two years in a row, we saw that the number one career choice from our high school kids was by far health care. St. Louis is like an hour away. Illinois, rural Illinois prepares nurses, oftentimes subsidized by state grants, and then St. Louis uh obtains them. So basically, South Central Illinois was preparing nurses for the St. Louis market. So we had looked into this, and so we explored a partnership with a couple of partners, our community college, Southern Illinois Healthcare Foundation, Alton Memorial Hospital. So they all all kind of agreed, like uh SIHF said that we will pay for the scrubs and the stethoscopes. Alton Memorial said they could do free clinicals here on site. The community college dedicated a section with one of their finest instructors that had a 100% pass rate on a very rigorous exam to support that. And we even transported kids to that opportunity so that we did not want gasoline or a vehicle to be a barrier. And we did this experiment on this one career pathway, and it was remarkable. It was transformational for kids. You know, not to get specific, but there are certain kids that were going down a path, probably not the most productive. And this CNA nursing, work-based learning experience required drug tests random. So that path had to be curtailed. Like to think, think we saved a kid, at least one in that regard. They also learned some of the soft skills necessary for real life success. I think they were really tipped off when they found out Columbus Day wasn't a guaranteed holiday. I mean, it's a K-12 holiday, and I think it's a federal banking holiday, but yeah, that's probably about it. You're you will be expected to work on Columbus Day in the real life. So there are some soft skills there, but then that sense of accomplishment when kids left with a diploma and a CNA certification, and they were already under heavy demand at Christmas time to be offered jobs making $20 an hour. Sometimes that's more than maybe one of their parents were currently making at the time. So and we've just built upon that based on student interests and needs. It used to be education was the number two career pathway. Now that has dropped a dropped off the list with the education. And I think that's reflective of national trends. So now we have shifted, and based on that model, that's our new North Star for high school kids is to graduate every single kid with either 15 hours of college credit or an industry credential.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 18:43

That is an incredible, incredible accomplishment. Todd, you mentioned that one story, and I thank you for you know sharing that about the student that may have been on the wrong path. I mean, that it's so you know important for educators to realize how they can influence the trajectory of a child's uh life and the alignment of this particular initiative. I can see how that has been such a such a win.

What aspiring principals need to know about leading culture and instruction

Dr. Matthew Flippen 19:07

When you think about aspiring principals today, what advice would you give to them about, you know, just about becoming cultural and instructional leaders? Maybe I'd speak to both of those if you could.

Dr. Todd Dugan 19:19

I do think that to be a strong instructional leader, you have to A, first be learner-centered. You have to remember why the whole system is even there. Every once in a while, just step back and just remind yourself why people in this town a long time ago decided to get together, share their tax money, and then send their kids. I mean, those are two very precious resources, your children and you and your tax dollars to trust them with. So you have to consider why this was all started, and it was for uh success for a future generation. Nobody wanted to have a community where the future generation wasn't equipped to function or be productive. Uh so when we ask ourselves questions on why we still do something or why we're not doing something in particular, and if the answer is just sometimes it's just because the way it is, or it's not in the job description, or no one else is doing it. So why do we have to? I've even heard other leaders say, like trajectories of kids, that's not my job. My job is to be compliant with the state. You have to be committed, you have to be, I think, altruistic in nature. You have to want to do something, not because you would be financially rewarded, but because it's the right thing to do. And I think ultimately when it comes to a leader there, there could be courses, there could be practicums and all that, but ultimately it comes down to a core characteristic of are you transactional or are you relational and altruistic in nature? Do I think people can learn new skills? Absolutely. Uh, leadership is a skill that can be acquired by anybody. But uh at the end of the day, if if you're not motivated to improve the lives of learners, that's probably going to be a restraint on moving the system forward. And don't be afraid to take a risk if you can justify it with student success. Can you afford it? And is it good for kids? And if it's yes and yes, it's a no-brainer. Like I have no problem. In fact, that's about how quick our board votes on things like that. We did that pilot program two years ago to pay for the first 15 hours of college for every qualifying kid that wanted to access it. There's research that says kids with access to five classes are 22% more likely to be successful post-secondary. Higher income, higher standard of living. I think that would square up completely with the mission of a school district preparing its future community. Can we afford it? Yes. So it's a no-brainer.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 21:48

And I think courage is courage is needed is to experiment, to try to align outcomes with you know what's best for best for children.

Dr. Todd Dugan 21:58

And that goes from the boardroom down to the classroom because if your teachers are scared to take a risk, they will stay with the tried and true worksheets that have been Cerox for generations. Instead, we have teachers that are taking risks by having students code uh little motors that will drive a car. And they're using computational thinking skills along with other interdisciplinary skills in nature, reading, deciphering, math. They're using it all together in different ways, but it requires a risk because that's not the way it's always been done. And they have to feel safe. And that's where I feel like the job of the leaders is to provide a culture and a climate that is open and conducive and supportive of risks. And I guess that's essentially what a leader does. They create the conditions for positive transformational change. So that's perfect definition.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 22:46

This perspective is so great, great, Todd. I really appreciate you just sharing. You know, it's not a it's not a quick fix, right? This is this is, and we, you know, sometimes in our in our day where TikTok and 30-second videos dominate, we think, well, that was easy, but uh, but it doesn't. It takes grit and perseverance. I do think rural educators are uniquely gifted in in both of those uh traits. And so this idea about how you transform culture, set high expectations, really has been extremely helpful. So where can our listeners connect with you and just continue to learn more more from you?

Dr. Todd Dugan 23:22

Twitter, T Dugan75, LinkedIn.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 23:25

Yeah, we'll share, we'll share that uh on the uh on the notes and uh yeah, and then we'll keep highlighting stories when we hear about uh the other great things you and your you or district are doing. You know, thanks really for being on the podcast today.

Dr. Todd Dugan 23:39

You know, you are Well, thank you for the honor of an invitation. I enjoyed it immensely.

Dr. Matthew Flippen 23:44

Yes, yeah, yeah, it's really, really outstanding. So if this encouraged uh you as it did me, please share it with another educator or school leader who would benefit from it. If you haven't already, you know, continue to follow transformational educators and uh keep helping schools transform into places where students and educators can thrive. If today's conversation gave you fresh insight or inspired you to lead with purpose, please follow the show and tell a friend. It helps us reach more educators who want to make a difference. For more stories, resources, and tools to support your leadership journey, visit Graceland.edu. Until next time, keep leading with courage and care. If you want to keep learning about transformational strategies in education, click the next video.